12 to 24v step up efficency


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  1. #1
    Fanatical Contributor Tim's Avatar
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    Default 12 to 24v step up efficency

    Hello people

    Quick question, I need a 12v to 24v step up. So I purchased one, It claims 90% efficiency. Great! It arrived and on testing it works as expected but its not what I would call efficient.

    Its powering a small pump, it runs at around 300ma at 12v but when I connect it through the step up converter to 24v it adds around another 1000ma.
    Is that right? an extra 1 amp?

    Thanks

    Tim
    Tim

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    Senior Member tumbleweed's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12 to 24v step up efficency

    That does sound a bit high.

    A rough estimate of input current for a boost converter is: Vout/Vin * Iout, which should have put you somewhere in the 24/12 * 300mA = 600mA range

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    Member david's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12 to 24v step up efficency

    Hi Tim,
    I think a small motor driving an impeller will approximate a square law load wrt voltage and not appear as a linear resistance. I'd be expecting around 1.2A at 24V.
    If efficiency is what you need a coreless DC motor will have lower magnetizing current or a brushless motor has longer life and no brush friction but requires a more complex drive circuit. The latter are very cheap to purchase ready made and usually come with a 5V linear regulator built in for other circuitry. They also allow for simple, lossless speed control.
    Is the pump not available as a 24V option? If so it would likely be wound at a lower Kv and therefore be the same power as the 12V option (i.e. 150mA @24V)

    Cheers,
    David

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    Fanatical Contributor Tim's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12 to 24v step up efficency

    Hi David

    The pump is a submersible type so has a magnetic core. The pump comes in 2 voltages 12 and 24 but I think they are identical its just at 24v there is a higher output. That is why I want to run at 24v. The particular pump is rated to 60oC which is needed and is known for being robust.

    The kit I'm developing has 6 x 12v fans, they can draw 2.4 amps at full whack, I buy them in bulk. I also have a powerful power supply a Meanwell 300w 12v unit. So I have plenty of current available. It was more I thought the 1+amps was a lot. But the explanation you gave makes sense.


    Thanks for the advice, appreciated.

    Tim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails waterpump.jpg‎  
    Tim

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    Junior Member Dave Purola's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12 to 24v step up efficency

    How much current @ 24vdc. does it draw under load?

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    Member david's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12 to 24v step up efficency

    Hi Tim,
    I think this is the spec of the two different pump voltage options-

    Voltage: 12V DC / D9356
    Maximum Rated Current: 500MA
    Max Flow Rate: 6.5 L/Min
    Max Water Head: 3 metre
    Max system pressure: 10Bar
    Max circulating water temperature: 100C
    Low noise: 30db at 1 metre DC 24V Hot/Cooling Water Circulation pump
    Inlet/Outlet: 1/2" male thead

    Voltage: 24V DC / D9357
    Maximum Rated Current: 800MA
    Max Flow Rate:10L/Min
    Max Water Head: 5 metre
    Max system pressure: 10Bar
    Max circulating water temperature: 100C
    Low noise: 30db at 1 metre

    If you can trust the specifications given the 24V model is considerably higher output but it's still unlikely that it's the same motor run at twice the operating voltage. If you were to use the 24V option and run it off your DC-DC step up converter you would be looking at 1600mA plus on your 12V input side. You may also want to verify the converter on a similar rated resistive load. I've used mainly Buck down converters but some of them are shockers mainly due to poor inductors or insufficient inductance.
    When it comes fans you want the maximum swept area you can accommodate. A slower, large diameter fan is much more efficient than a small fan screaming away.
    Good luck with your project.

    Cheers.
    David

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    Fanatical Contributor Tim's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12 to 24v step up efficency

    Hi

    Thanks for the info it puts my mind at ease. The step up is nothing special it's like the one below. It's a little bulky. I'm going to test it running at 12v first to see if it can shift enough water and only go to 24 if its not operating well enough.

    The fans have to be 120mm as they are pushing air through a radiator. 3 x 120mm PC rads (2 off)

    The product is an aircooled steam sample cooler. Companies have to take condensate samples for analysis. If you have a fixed sample cooler connected to mains water its not an issue but if you have to go from point to point where there are none it's a massive pain in the butt. You need to get mains water or bring your own and pump it through a special sample cooler (coil in a tube). Water gets hot real quick, messy and dangerous. a not fun exercise. On top of that you have to be really careful not to contaminate the sample.

    My new system uses recirculating coolant that fills the sample cooler assembly and then passes through 2 (3x120) pc radiators with the fans to cool it down. Packaged in as small as system as I can. The parts and metal work have been an arm and a leg > 1.5k. In production I hope can halve that but even then by the time you put on a profit to cover assembly etc and all the distributors slices the end customer will be paying an arm and a leg. Not that all that info is anything to do with my question but thought it might be interesting.

    Attached some photos


    Click image for larger version

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    Tim

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    Default Re: 12 to 24v step up efficency

    Hi Tim,
    You get all the cool projects so to speak.
    Have you considered thermoelectric coolers? Might be an overkill but it may allow a much smaller design. They come in various sizes depending on total cooling requirements. This is a typical 2 stage cooler but you can get single, triple and quad stage coolers-

    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33032618114.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.2a1555e 1yFDJYt&s=p&algo_pvid=857f8a24-3108-4709-8aae-2f9e34c8b781&algo_expid=857f8a24-3108-4709-8aae-2f9e34c8b781-8&btsid=f5b66361-a0bb-46d2-acd9-02d882e8e3f4&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2,searchwe b201603_53


    Good luck with the project.

    Cheers,
    David
    Last edited by david; 18th January 2020 at 10:35.

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    Prolific Poster charliecoultas's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12 to 24v step up efficency

    It nice to actually see one of your projects Tim. As David says, you get to do some fascinating stuff.
    Good luck with this one.
    Charlie

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    Fanatical Contributor Tim's Avatar
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    Default Re: 12 to 24v step up efficency

    Since a few people seem interested I thought I would explain more how it will work.



    The basics are that to take a clean steam condensate sample you need to use 316L tubing for the cooling tube and it has to be purchased with a surface finish certificate. The Pharma companies I supply get really uptight about that.

    Next is that in use you need to be able to clean it before you take the sample, this is done most of the time by purging it with steam. The steam pressure that it has to handle means it may see temperatures of 150'C although in reality its much lower as its not a pressurised system. This leads to an issue. You cannot free steam the sample tubing with coolant around it. Normally its simply done by turning of the cooling water and if they plumbed it right it will self drain and then loads a steam will be ejected out of the outlet. I say if they plumbed it right as often they plumb it with no ability to drain so your breaking fittings to get it to drain, or in some cases they plumb it into the chilled water loop which renders them useless.
    One last thing some people want to be able to depyrogenate the cooling coil. To do that you need to be able to stick it in an oven and heat it to say 180oc for a few hours.

    So in my system I needed the ability to
    1 remove the cooling coil
    2 drain down the coolant

    I achieve this by having the cooling coil in a sealed container. There is 5mtrs of 6mm tube in front cooling chamber. The cooling chamber is connected to the main body with 15mm stainless tubes that push past o-rings in fittings in the cooling tank. In use there are 2 modes. Free steaming where the cooling chamber can drain and cooling where the main pump is on surrounding the coil in coolant. In that mode the coolant is pumped into the unit at the bottom and exits via a pipe at the top. The fluid then gets routed through piping and one way valves out through the radiators and back into the tank.

    There are potentially a number of issues like the coolant getting really hot as you enter free steaming mode as it drains so there are actually 2 pumps. A smaller one that circulates coolant through the rads but not round the cooling coil. Also as its not 100% tested yet it could over pressurise as the air expands, Not sure how to deal with that yet.

    When I have it running I will post a video and update you on its effectiveness. I did build a unit with parts and rads and fans to see if it could cool enough to be usable. It performed well and makes a great space heater But like all R/D work it can be expensive just to test if something will work.

    Like all products you need to sell them, I'm not holding out much hope on this one. Its very niche so if I shift 10 in its life time then I will consider it worth while.

    In case your interested here is another one of my products using rads and fans etc. https://www.scientistlive.com/conten...uality-testing
    Tim

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    Default Re: 12 to 24v step up efficency

    Hi Tim,
    Thanks for the comprehensive update on the project. So the electronics is only a small part of the total package and the rest is physics and plumbing. While many of us here are dabbling in software and electronics you're having to deliver solutions to end customers.
    Good luck with it all and I hope orders exceed expectations.

    Cheers,
    David

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